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double negation

fikolek

Member
Polish
This sentence contains double negation so I guess it's incorrect but I don't know how to rephrase it without losing its meaning.

There was no lesson when he didn't lose something important.
I don't believe it to be incorrect. The double negative can exist in English, but it converts the meaning into positive. So your sentence would mean that he miss thing in lesson.
Personally, I would prefer "in which" to "when", and "miss" to "lose", but that is not your question 👁 Smile :)
I have no problem with your double negation because each "no" is in its own clause. However, I do not quite understand the sentence itself - are you saying he lost something important (like his watch, book, etc.) every time he had a lesson?
Not a watch or book but an important piece of paper, for example.
I was taught never to use a double negative when I was in school. The teachers were wrong. And a double negative in language does not necessarily equal a positive.

The double negative rule is a rule of math; it does not really apply to language. So if a double negative is the best way to express your thoughts, go ahead and use it.
I was taught never to use a double negative when I was in school. The teachers were wrong. And a double negative in language does not necessarily equal a positive.

The double negative rule is a rule of math; it does not really apply to language. So if a double negative is the best way to express your thoughts, go ahead and use it.
Hi Packard. I was never taught not to use a double negative. Only that if I did, the resulting meaning would be positive eg: There was nobody/there wasn't anybody who didn't know me = Everybody knew me.
I think boozer is right when he mentions the different clauses, because my above example is very different from There wasn't nobody there, which would normally be interpreted as "There was nobody there" in correct English, even if logic says, Well, if there wasn't "nobody", there must have been "somebody".
Hi Packard. I was never taught not to use a double negative. Only that if I did, the resulting meaning would be positive eg: There was nobody/there wasn't anybody who didn't know me = Everybody knew me.
I think boozer is right when he mentions the different clauses, because my above example is very different from There wasn't nobody there, which would normally be interpreted as "There was nobody there" in correct English, even if logic says, Well, if there wasn't "nobody", there must have been "somebody".

What you were taught is not true either. I will offer an example:

She was not beautiful, but she was not ugly either; she was not brilliant, but she was not stupid; she was not tall, but neither was she short; she was not fat, nor was she skinny. In all matters she was average.

So clearly "she was not beautiful" does not fall to the negation to be equal to "ugly". In many cases what your teacher taught you is correct; but in many cases it is not correct.
I was taught never to use a double negative when I was in school. The teachers were wrong. And a double negative in language does not necessarily equal a positive.
The double negative rule is a rule of math; it does not really apply to language. So if a double negative is the best way to express your thoughts, go ahead and use it.

Couldn't agree with you more.
French/Italian/Spanish all have double negation, and nobody would dare say that those languages "didn't make sense" and the equivalent of "I don't have nothing" said by them is an incorrect use of their language. Maths and language are completely separate and there is no need for a rule of one to be applied to another as if it was somehow universal.
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She was not beautiful, but she was not ugly either; she was not brilliant, but she was not stupid; she was not tall, but neither was she short; she was not fat, nor was she skinny. In all matters she was average.
This sentence is perfect. 👁 Smile :)
Simply because every "not" is in a clause of its own. The double-negation rule concerns cases like the one offered by Alxmrphi "I don't have nothing", where there are two negative words in a single clause and where those two negative words clash. With all due respect, Alex, this sentence is substandard English as far as I am concerned. 👁 Smile :)
And with all due respect to all languages (including mine) where double, triple and even quadruple negation is standard. 👁 Smile :)


PS. "I don't have nothing" is only substandard, of course, where it is meant as "I have nothing/I don't have anything". If, in the final analysis, it transpires that the speaker is actually trying to say "I do have something", then, perhaps, it could be considered as an option... of sorts 👁 Smile :)
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This sentence is perfect. 👁 Smile :)
Simply because every "not" is in a clause of its own. The double-negation rule concerns cases like the one offered by Alxmrphi "I don't have nothing", where there are two negative words in a single clause and where those two negative words clash. With all due respect, Alex, this sentence is substandard English as far as I am concerned. 👁 Smile :)
And with all due respect to all languages (including mine) where double, triple and even quadruple negation is standard. 👁 Smile :)


PS. "I don't have nothing" is only substandard, of course, where it is meant to say "I have nothing/I don;t have anything". If, in the final analysis, it transpires that the speaker is actually trying to say "I do have something", then, perhaps, it could be considered as an option... of sorts 👁 Smile :)

I actually wrote something very similar to this for a high school teacher who insisted on always writing in the positive, never in the negative. So my original sentence which read:

She was not beautiful, but she was not ugly either; she was not brilliant, but she was not stupid; she was not tall, but neither was she short; she was not fat, nor was she skinny. In all matters she was average.


Becomes:

She average looking, of average intelligence, height and weight. In all matters she was average.

While my original sentence could hardly be called "art", it certainly rises above the "positive-only" sentence below it which can only be called "average".
I actually wrote something very similar to this for a high school teacher who insisted on always writing in the positive, never in the negative. So my original sentence which read:

She was not beautiful, but she was not ugly either; she was not brilliant, but she was not stupid; she was not tall, but neither was she short; she was not fat, nor was she skinny. In all matters she was average.


Becomes:

She average looking, of average intelligence, height and weight. In all matters she was average.

While my original sentence could hardly be called "art", it certainly rises above the "positive-only" sentence below it which can only be called "average".
Could a teacher really say that? 👁 Eek! :eek:
This is... crap 👁 Eek! :o
Could a teacher really say that? 👁 Eek! :eek:
This is... crap 👁 Eek! :o

She did not write it. I wrote the original which she X-ed out. So I re-wrote it (as a joke) as shown above and she was satisfied.

This is the result of being subjected to hard and fast rules. Obeying rules without ever questioning them is a mistake we should not make.
Getting back to the question that actually was asked at the head of this thread:

This sentence contains double negation so I guess it's incorrect
Not at all. It is only incorrect if you want the sentence to be negative -- but apparently you do not want that.

There was no lesson when he didn't lose something important.
If you mean that he lost something important at every lesson, then it is correct. The only problem I might have with it is are use of the word "lesson" (unless you mean individual instruction of some kind, I would say "class", or perhaps "session"), and the use of "when" (because it would be clearer if you said "There was no lesson/class/session he didn't lose something important."
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