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need -ing again

Akasaka

Senior Member
Japanese
Hello again,
Do the following sentences make sense to you? Are they grammatically correct?

a. This book needs reading.
b. This letter needs keeping.
c. The mountain needs climbing.
d. The baby needs looking after.
e. This music needs listening to.

Thanks in advance.
Oh dear. In fact the only one that sounds right to me is d). I struggle to think of any time when the others would not sound better worded differently.

I think the clue is in the word 'need'.

a) The book doesn't NEED reading. The book hasn't got a need. It should be read. It must be read. It ought to be read. It doesn't NEED reading. There is however a chance that 'you need to read it'.

The same applies to all the other examples except d) where the baby could genuinely be described as 'needing looking after'.

Does that make sense?
Yes, I fully agree, only living beings can have needs. Maybe "this book requires reading" or something... or... whatever 👁 Smile :)
Do the following sentences make sense to you? Are they grammatically correct?

a. This book needs reading.
b. This letter needs keeping.
c. The mountain needs climbing.
d. The baby needs looking after.
e. This music needs listening to.

This form is perfectly grammatical - you just need to ensure that it makes sense. I do think it might be difficult for a non-native speaker as the use of "need" + "ing" seems to me to be learned.
"Your head needs examining" is okay, as is "This room needs cleaning" but "This letter needs keeping." is awkward.

Also I think it is confined to BE.
You're right Marty - other inanimate objects and parts of the body can be said to 'need' as well :
that cut needs a bandage
my hands need a good manicure.

The safest option, when talking of an inanimate object is possibly to use the infinitive instead of the gerund, e.g. the book needs to be read. The letter needs to be kept.
Even though it seems somewhat confusing, I guess I can sense the difference:

"This room needs cleaning." (I immediately think that it's dirty, untidy, things are scattered all over the place, etc.)

"This book needs reading." (nothing comes to my mind here, why the heck does it need reading?) 👁 Confused :confused:
👁 Big Grin :D
I agree with all so far. True, non-living things can't really need or want, but we (BrE at least) use both need and want in this way. I can say "my car needs repairing" or "my car wants repairing" and it makes sense. In the latter case, changing to passive+infinitive doesn't really work - "my car wants to be repaired".

The "needs" and "wants" are not those of the car, but mine. So, in the right context, even "this book needs reading" could make sense, especially in a reflective statement - what I would really be saying is "I need to read this book."
Yes you're right, but I was talking about using 'need', not want. 'My car needs to be repaired' is perfectly acceptable. I would rarely if ever use 'want' in this context.
a) The book doesn't NEED reading. The book hasn't got a need. It should be read. It must be read. It ought to be read. It doesn't NEED reading. There is however a chance that 'you need to read it'.

The same applies to all the other examples except d)

Thank you very much for your reply. You say books don't need reading. But certain books need to be read by students. Isn't that the same as " The house needs repairing." is correct?
I am not quite sure if I have made myself understood.
Yes you're right, in that context a book might be required to be read, in which case you can say 'the book needs to be read'. e.g. The book needs to be read before the end of this month' .

You wouldn't say 'the book needs reading .....' Apart from the reasons given earlier in this thread, the only other explanation I can offer is to say that it just doesn't sound right.
You say books don't need reading. But certain books need to be read by students.

If I said to some students "This book needs reading" whilst showing the book to them, then the message I would be trying to communicate would be "You need to read this book." However in reality, since my students are not native English speakers, I would almost certainly use "You need to..." in order to avoid possible misunderstanding.
You say books don't need reading. But certain books need to be read by students. Isn't that the same as " The house needs repairing." is correct?
I would ask why something "needs doing to it". Why does the house need repairing? Because it is in bad repair.
Why would a book need reading?

You could say "That book needs covering." Why, because the cover is in tatters."
This chapter needs rewriting.
My coat needs mending.

Do you agree these two sentences are correct?
They're fine.
I don't understand why they're fine whereas "This book needs reading.
" is not. I don't quite see the difference between them. Maybe does it something to do with the visibility (My coat is torn. )?
Just to confuse matters:

All the original examples are things I might say, but it would be deliberately unusual. If I grab a CD and say "This music needs listening to!", it's sort of funny* because it sounds as though I'm doing the CD a favour by listening to it.


*: For those with a low threshold of humour.
I don't understand why they're fine whereas "This book needs reading.
" is not. I don't quite see the difference between them. Maybe does it something to do with the visibility (My coat is torn. )?

I don't think visibility is the the key. I think the key is that an action is to be performed directly on the object, which affects the object. Reading a book does not affect the book. This would explain why, of your original examples, (d) is the only one which really feels comfortable. The rest are conceivable but weird.

So: my coat needs mending, car needs fixing, boat neeeds painting - all ok. But: my song needs singing, coat needs wearing, beer needs drinking - don't work. Hmm, I think I've found the solution 👁 Smile :)
Any seconders?
It is a question of logic. All the examples given in your opening question are possible as long as they make sense.
"This music needs listening to." - why does it need listening to? I can't really think of a logical reason why?
"That music needs lowering" - why? Because it is too loud.
"That mountain needs climbing" - why? It has never been climbed before.
It is a question of logic. All the examples given in your opening question are possible as long as they make sense.
"This music needs listening to." - why does it need listening to? I can't really think of a logical reason why?
"That music needs lowering" - why? Because it is too loud.
"That mountain needs climbing" - why? It has never been climbed before.

Yes and no 👁 Smile :)
I still think we are unlikely to use this form of speech unless there will be some kind of physical effect on the object in question. The same is true whether we use the gerund or passive+infinitve forms. I don't think that in practice we would say "that mountain needs [climbing/to be climbed]" because after having been climbed the mountian would be exactly the same as before. Yes, we can say "the book needs [reading / to be read] by the end of the month" (there is a need) but I don't think we would say that.
Hello again,
Do the following sentences make sense to you? Are they grammatically correct?

a. This book needs reading.
b. This letter needs keeping.
c. The mountain needs climbing.
d. The baby needs looking after.
e. This music needs listening to.

Thanks in advance.

I know I'd be confusing things, but funnily enough, as a native British English speaker, I would say all of these are acceptable in some way or another.

I would say the only one which sounded a tad awkward would be (c), otherwise I think they're okay.

Don't forget, they're not really expressing a need of the object, for example in (a), "This book needs reading" gives me a sense that the book is so good, you've just got to read it, or it you must read it because it's due back to the library the next day, or something.

👁 Smile :)
Frankly I don't think the phrase needs + gerund is that much in use anyway. Yes, I have been known to say to my children 'those hands need washing' in a strict motherly sort of way, but generally one would use whatever the opposite of passive is (sorry, having a blonde moment). In speeches and business and political talk, the phrase is much more common: e.g These matters need addressing urgently.

I still think that passive+infinitive version is more reliable and less open to error. You could say 'This needs doing before tomorrow' but you'd be more like to say 'This needs to be done before tomorrow'.

Returning to the examples in the original question:

a. This book needs reading. Under normal circumstances you would say instead ' You should/must read this book' or 'This book must/should be read ..'
b. This letter needs keeping. No English person I know would say this, however, they WOULD say 'this letter needs to be kept' and also 'this letter needs to be filed.' plus, 'this letter needs filing'. Illogical, but there you have it. We already knew that English isn't the most logical of languages.
c. The mountain needs climbing. Surely no-one (except maybe Marty - sorry Marty!) could think that a mountain needed climbing. I can't think of anyone who would say that. Or any reason to.

d. The baby needs looking after. YES YES YES

e. This music needs listening to. 'This music needs to be listened to to be appreciated.' YES (but a bit cumbersome, you'd be more likely to say 'you have to listen to this to appreciate it'). But not 'this music needs listening to.
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