• Reviewed work: The Myth of the Jewish race
• Judaism: Are Jews a Nation or a Religion?
• Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent

You don't have to agree with any of these arguments (and I don't share in them all), but your statement/accusation that people who deny Jews are an ethnicity express a fringe viewpoint is demonstrably incorrect. It depends too on how you define ethnicity. Even Jewish Virtual Library, that second source above, states: "Is Judaism an ethnicity? In short, not any more. Although Judaism arose out of a single ethnicity in the Middle East, there have always been conversions into and out of the religion. Thus, there are those who may have been ethnically part of the original group who are no longer part of Judaism, and those of other ethnic groups who have converted into Judaism." Tiamut (talk) 00:53, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

• Patai defines "race" in its narrowest, biological sense.; In addition, Patai's section dealing with Jewish psychological propensities is weak and lacking in conceptualization. He easily destroys the formal arguments for Jewish "personality traits" yet he with cultural similarities which may be almost as important.; The logical differentiations between genetic variables and historical or cultural ones may be meaningless to those who are most susceptible to the appeals of bigotry or those who seek to spread them.. I don't think this paper supports that there's no Jewish ethnicity.
• Jewish Virtual Library is not RS (see WP:RSPJVL) and the source it cites in the link you provided is dubious.
• Says It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. so even if it does say that Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent (which I haven't personally seen but I'm also kind of sleepy right now), it still says that Jews share genetic markers. It's well known that there's Jewish communities that are more genetically distant than the rest (e.g. Yemenite Jews and Ethiopian Jews) but that doesn't mean that Jews as a whole are not an ethnic group.

See Jews for academic citations on Jewish being an ethnoreligious group. I still disagree that it's not fringe NorthernWinds ❄️ () 06:15, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Perhaps you mean ethnonational group? Because Israeli scholarship itself speaks of multiple Jewish ethnicities: "In terms of 'ethnicities', the history of the State can be divided into two ideological periods. The first two decades were characterized by an ideology of melting pot ( mizug galuyot) whose mold was intentionally Western. The bureaucratic implementation of this ideology was intended politically to banish many of the 'ethnic' distinctions among Jews to produce the new Israeli person. By contrast the last three decades have been characterized by the emergence of an ideology of ethnic pluralism among Jews whose impact is felt in all sectors of Israeli life." This text indicates that there is not one unified ethnic category for Jews. Rather, the differences between "Jewish ethnicities" (note that the plural) have been smoothed over in "Zionist ideology" by making these "ethnicities as equals of one another within the Israeli national." The text goes on to describe that the "Western founders of the state" intended it to be Western, and their approach to Eastern or Arab Jews (including presumably Levantine ones) was to see them as "exotic primitives".

But perhaps this discussion is more relevant to the talk of the list you want to create. Tiamut (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

And in fact even Wikipedia has an article entitled Jewish ethnic divisions. Tiamut (talk) 07:37, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

They are speaking of subethnicities, not distinct unrelated ethnicities. This is evident from the fact that they put all these ethnicities under the umbrella of Jewish ethnicity. Here's a source more explicit about this. I'll see if I have time today maybe I'll compile 30 or so sources supporting me to convince you that it's fringe, but no promises. NorthernWinds ❄️ () 11:37, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Please do not trouble yourself. It is a clearly contested designation. Several religiously devout Jews reject the idea that people born to parents to Jewish parents remain Jewish if they convert or do not practice the religion, a fact that in and of itself demonstrates that it is not controversial to believe it is a faith/religion only. Tiamut (talk) 13:06, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Tiamut Please do not trouble yourself Admittedly I got a little carried away. Just making sure you know: A people and an ethnic group is the same thing.^[1]

Several religiously devout Jews reject the idea that people born to parents to Jewish parents remain Jewish if they convert or do not practice the religion, a fact that in and of itself demonstrates that it is not controversial to believe it is a faith/religion only. I don't see any reason to cite "several religiously devout Jews" in an encyclopedia. I am a big fan of RS though:

1. Jewish identity is not only layered and multi-faceted; the term “Jewish” represents both a religious and ethno-cultural identity, further complicating the conceptualization of Jewishness and Jewish religious identity.^[2]
2. As others re-evaluated their ethnic and religious commitments, Jews were compelled to do the same.^[3] (introduction, written by Gitelman, Zvi Y.; Kosmin, Barry Alexander; Kovács, András)
3. An ethnic group is a "social group whose members share a sense of common origins, claim a common and distinctive history and destiny, possess one or more distinctive characteristics, and feel a sense of collective uniqueness and solidarity." The "distinctive characteristic" or the "epitome of peoplehood" is usually language, kinship patterns, or religion. In the Jewish case, religion has been the most distinctive characteristic. However, certainly in the modern period one may be a non-believer and aJew, though it is unlikely that one can be an active practitioner of a religion other than Judaism and still be considered a Jew by other Jews. Therefore, one must distinguish between Judaism and Jewish ethnicity or, simply, Jewishness.^[4]
4. In his chapter in this volume, Stephen Miller highlights the three key elements of Jewish identity based on factor analyses of the 1995 British survey: practice (levels of ritual observance), belief (strength of religious belief), and ethnicity (strength of belonging).^[5]
5. Considered differently, the Jewish story is remarkable in part because ethnic identity was so well preserved without reliance on a territorial state. Jewish ethnic survival in the face of oppression, assimilationist drives, and dispersal is unprecedented on such a scale.^[6]
6. while in Catholicism belief will largely predict practice, in Judaism it is ethnicity.^[5] (chapter by Jacqueline Goldberg)
7. Jewish identity appears to be made up of three main components: Practice...; Belief...; Ethnicity...^[7] (chapter by Stephen Miller)
8. Russian nationalists, like their Jewish counterparts, saw their national culture and their ethnicity as a major victim of Communist internationalism.^[8] (chapter by John D. Klier)
9. In post-Soviet Moldova, where people were not accustomed to expressing their Jewish ethnicity/nationality openly, and some even hid their Jewishness, taking advantage of services does represent open expression of an affiliation with the Jewish community.^[9] (chapter by Malka Korazim and Esther Katz)
10. most descriptions of Jewish identity as it is observed today and in other periods are put in terms of nationhood (or “ethnicity”)^[10]
11. American Jews, then, were the first to take seriously the notion that Jews needed to begin documenting not just their historic unity but also their historic diversity as a people that had ethnic and cultural distinctions based on the places they lived and on their roots in different places.^[11]
12. In fact, at least for the past three generations in the United States, and in Israel today, observance of Jewish law (religion) and commitment to the Jewish people (ethnicity) are correlated.; Although one can always find greater emphasis on one or the other component, religion and ethnicity are intertwined in the Jewish tradition.^[12] (chapter by Charles S. Liebman)
13. Because the maskilim were intimately involved in Jewish ethnicity, religion, and culture...^[13]
14. Interestingly, however, this commitment seems to have impinged very little on the private Jewish attachments of these men, few of whom felt compelled to pull away from the Jewish community, despite hostility directed towards them for their ethnic commitments.^[14] (chapter by Maud Mandel
15. Still, the Jewish diaspora continues to be used as prototype because it combines such features as ethnicity, religion, minority status, a consciousness of peoplehood, a long history of migration, expulsion, adaptation to a variety of hostlands whose welcome was conditional and unreliable, and a continuing orientation to a homeland and to a narrative and ethnosymbols related to it.^[15]
16. The religious and cultural ambiguity of Jewish self-definition first became an acute problem in early modern Europe with the reintegration of Conversos into Jewish life in Italy, northern Europe, and the Ottoman empire. For New Christians who attempted to return to Judaism in the seventeenth century, the rite of passage was neither simple nor complete. They retained, consciously or unconsciously, identifiable attitudes and associations with their distant past, both religious notions and ethnic loyalties, which, in most cases, they could not fully dislodge.^[14] (chapter by David B. Ruderman)
17. On the other hand, the more catholic view would include any kind of art that Jews happen to create that reference the broadest Jewish concepts such as, peace, spirituality, brotherhood, tikkun ‘olam, ethnic identity and family.^[16] (chapter by Richard McBee)
18. Jews remained "Jews," even as the meaning of the term shifted emphasis from peoplehood or ethnicity to religiosity (see Levine 1986; Winter 1991 b, 1992).
19. Jews identify as “Jews” in terms of religion, ethnicity, culture, nation, race, and more.^[17]
20. The Jewish corporation sustained the dual identity of religion and ethnicity...^[18]
21. In many ways, Jews are a people who enjoy paradoxes.^[19]
22. The Jews are a people, a nation, for a long time a stateless nation, butnonetheless a collective of a familiar kind.^[20]
23. the Jews are a people who...^[21] (chapter by Sander L. Gilman)
24. After all, Judaism is a religion, yet Jews are a people, with enough historical suffering, if not joy.^[22]
25. The Jews are a people whose existence is synonymous with the words “exile” and “dispersion,” yet Levinas claims that they have found, and always had found, a perfect plane of existence within the texts and subtexts of scripture and the long list of its traditional commentaries.^[23]
26. Since the Jews are a people and not a church...^[24]
27. Jews, like all ethnic or religious communities, are unbound serialities...^[25]
28. Jews are not merely a religious or confessional community. Jews are a people, a tribe.^[26]
29. Jews are a people full of paradoxes^[27]
30. In modern times the special Jewish linkage between ethnos, religion and nation, as well as the worldwide affiliation of Jews to that part of the Middle East called by them the Land of Israel, have become unintelligible to non-Jews and after the Holocaust also to many Jews and even to some Israelis.^[28]
31. At the start of the twenty-first century, Jewish peoplehood (the abstract-noun variant of the Jewish people) has eclipsed religion (as well as ethnicity and nationality) as the conceptual vocabulary for defining what it means to be a Jew, and the group category that captures the ties that bind Jews from around the globe to one another.^[29]
32. 'Diaspora' reinforces the historical truth that Judaism is not just a religion but that Jews are a people, a nation, with a common past, a common language, a common fate and a common...^[30]
33. ... does not change the fact that Jews are a people in exile^[31] (chapter by Danny Trom and Bruno Karsenti)
34. the Jews are a people as well as a religion^[32]
35. This approach questions the works of classical and modern Jewish scholars who held that despite non-Jewish influences and diverse expressions, Jews are a people who share a core identity that transcends time and space. The Jews, exceptional and unique, were linked by a commonality no matter where they happened to live at a particular time. Classical and modern Jewish scholars emphasized the tenacity and ability of the Jewish people to maintain their core beliefs and modify their admirable institutions and cultural expressions by balancing change and continuity. Many Jewish leaders and thinkers often showed greatness in difficult situations.^[33]
36. Zionism represents a continuation of an ethnic Jewish community that sustained its distinctiveness throughout centuries in the diaspora.^[34]
37. Jews are a people, am Yisrael (the nation of Israel), an ethnic group defined by a common descent, a sense of history, and other cultural attributes^[35]
38. ... Thus he denies that the Jews are a people,^[36]
39. Judaism is at once a religion, a culture, an ethnicity, and a nation—as we see acknowledged in the different treatment of converts from Judaism. In a word: Jews are a people.^[37]
40. The Jews are a people largely because of anti-Semitism.^[38]
41. The Jews are a people that has never ceased to produce myth.^[39]
42. The Jews are a people. This is the third ingredient in Jewishness.^[40]
43. The Jews are a people, and their story tells how, from equally modest beginnings in the Middle East, the people grew, mainly through natural increase, and became spread throughout...^[41]
44. Professor Paust said that one cannot deny the Jews a right to statehood, and I would agree that one cannot deny that the Jews are a "people."^[42]
45. The movement of Jewish groups and the formation of the Jewish diaspora following the fall of the Second Temple created a dynamic where Jews often lived in close proximity to other groups while retaining their own ethnic, cultural and religious identity.^[43]
46. Biblically and historically, Jews are a people with both national and cultural characteristics that are essential to our identity and which carry with them the rights and protections accorded to all nations and peoples.^[44]
47. Jews are a people who live by their traditions, even when rebelling against them.^[45]
48. Undeniably, Jewish culture is anthropocentric: Jews are a People focused on people.^[46]
49. Jews are a people, a tradition, and a faith separate from, though historically linked with, Christianity.^[47]
50. The Jews are a people^[48]

So there you have it, over 50 RS scholars^[a] referring to the Jews as an ethnic group. Don't forget to consider the existing citation on Wikipedia for the term "ethnoreligious"^[49]. It's crystal clear that an overwhelming majority of scholars consider Jews to be an ethnic group. Do you have one RS that contradicts these and denies that Jews are a people? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 22:15, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Gish gallop is hardly an effective or convincing form of argument, but one you seem to increasingly employ in these discussions. Katzrockso (talk) 03:18, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Also, the author explains it is Zionism that placed these varying Jewish ethnicities under a national umbrella, quite deliberately, to colonize Palestine. It is a hegemonic process that is still underway. Tiamut (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

The author of my source or yours? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 21:15, 4 June 2026 (UTC)[]

My source. An eminent Israeli anthropologist who discussess in depth how several Jewish ethnicities, disparate in character before Zionism, have been subsumed to it and are managed to construct a unifying national identity. But this discussion is not going to go anywhere here. Tiamut (talk) 04:26, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Your source calls them subcultures On each side of the essentialist divide between Jews and Palestinians there aresecondary distinctions. On the Jewish side, I call the secondary distinctions within essential sameness the discourse of edot yisrael (edot of Israel). As noted, the Hebrew term eda connotes a cohesive community, a gemeinschaft or subculture, based on common origin. Within the Jewish sector of Israel the use of eda, of community, resonates to a degree with how ‘ethnic group’ is used elsewhere. (p. 43-44)

This discussion is not going anywhere because you are not conceding in front of 50 sources contradicting you. At this point I have no idea what to do... NorthernWinds ❄️ () 06:48, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

It is not going anywhere because you are ignoring both the broader context of this discussion and its specificities. I opened it to address your accusation at WP:AE that not subscribing to the view that Jews form a monolithic, singular "ethnicity" is a fringe position. Besides what I have already said about my personal rejection of "ethnic" as a useful descriptor (even as applied to Palestinians), it is a particularly contested notion in the context of the list you are trying to build where you want to use this idea to gloss over the very real differences between Levantine Jews and the Jewish Zionist immigrants to Palestine to be able to include them all in a list that implies they are all from Palestine/the Levant. By which you are, by the way, reproducing the same totalizing nation-building narrative Don Handelman is incisively deconstructing in the work I linked you to. This analysis is not undermined by 50 sources you copy pasted to make a point I am not actually arguing. And your style of engagement here is quite exemplary of why we cannot reach any agreement on the various pages in question. Tiamut (talk) 07:22, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Tiamut If you didn't try to argue that it's not fringe to say Jews are not an ethnic group, can you concede that it is? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 07:56, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Its not fringe. It might be a minority position. Judaism is widely and uncontestedly perceived as a religion, both by its adherents and outsiders,though there is a growing trend among some non-religious Jews towards identifying with it as an ethnicity. Tiamut (talk) 08:28, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Tiamut It might be a minority position You either have a minority of sources or it's fringe. Do you have a minority of sources claiming that Jews are not a people? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 08:37, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Again, you are arguing a point of your own construction, and it is not one I have made, anywhere. Indeed on this very page I have described the process by which a Jewish national identity has been constructed by Zionism, which is an impossible accomplishment without a people perceiving themselves as such. Tiamut (talk) 08:55, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

You said your statement/accusation that people who deny Jews are an ethnicity express a fringe viewpoint is demonstrably incorrect

Thank you for conceding that Jews are an ethnic group. Is this to be understood as a reversal of your comment toward אקעגן? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 09:00, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Jews are an "ethnic group" in the way Arabs are an "ethnic group". "Ethnicity is not a sociopolitical organization", it is a set of ideas, by which people conceive of their unity with one another. While Jews base that unity on a shared religion, Arabs base it on a shared history and language. However, in both "ethnic groups", there are wide variations and ethnicities within them. And this is why I don't like using the word "ethnic group" for either. Are you satisfied now? Or are there more words and ideas you would like to falsely attribute to me for your AE report against me? Tiamut (talk) 09:10, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Tiamut, it's shocking that you don't understand the basic concept of the Jews being an ethnic group. Jews have a shared religion, ancestry, and history. Slava570 (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Oh, and language as well. Hebrew as a liturgical or spoken language, and various diasporic languages. Slava570 (talk) 12:17, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

How do you interpret the comment you are responding to as not understanding the concept of an "ethnic group" when it is a deconstruction of that concept and terminology? This pearl clutching in the face of terminological analysis of identity narratives is really not helpful. Tiamut (talk) 12:20, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I didn't say you don't understand the concept of an ethnic group. I said you didn't understand the concept of Jews being an ethnic group. This is so fringe that I never even knew some people think this. Slava570 (talk) 12:22, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Identities are constructed and constantly in flux. And the Jewish national identity is no exception. It is funny you mentioned Hebrew because the Revival of the Hebrew language was a big part of the homogenization program Zionism deployed to unite the various ethnically disparate Jewish communities in the Jewish diaspora. Tiamut (talk) 12:28, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Agree that identities are constantly in flux. That has no bearing on the fact that Jews are an ethnicity, today and in the past. All ethnic identities are in flux. Your use of "homogenization program" just adds a negative connotation to something that others may see in a positive light. But that also has no bearing on the fact that Jews are an ethnic group. Hebrew has always united the Jewish people, whether as a spoken or primarily liturgical language. Shared history also unites the Jewish people. Slava570 (talk) 12:43, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

"Homogenized" is used in the first sentence of Palestinians. I did not add it and found it offensive when I first read its just another way of saying "cohesive" which when discussing nations is considered a positive thing. Tiamut (talk) 13:00, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

The same word can be positive in some contexts and negative in others. A "homogenization program" sounds like trying to erase differences, which in today's day is usually considered a negative thing. But honestly, it doesn't matter. A program to make an ethnic group more cohesive doesn't change the fact that it's an ethnic group. Lots of groups do things to foster a sense of unity. Slava570 (talk) 13:07, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Note that Hebrew was never an extinct language; it was dead, which means it was used but just not for everyday speech.

From the fifth century CE on, Hebrew was not used anywhere in the world as an everyday spoken language. However, it continued to be widely used as a literary language up until its modern revival as a spoken tongue.
One instance in which Hebrew did continue to be spoken was among Jews traveling from East to West or migrating from country to country.
[...]
...During the last part of this period, new Jewish languages arose as the result of contact between different spoken vernaculars and Hebrew, for example, Yiddish (German and Hebrew), Ladino (Spanish and Hebrew), Judaeo-Arabic (Arabic and Hebrew).
[...]
Poetry in the Middle Ages was generally composed in Hebrew and some legal contracts were written in it as well. In Arab countries, Jews originally wrote poetry in Hebrew for religious purposes; in Christian countries, on the other hand, all literary production was written in Hebrew, whether related to religious subjects or secular.[1]

NorthernWinds ❄️ () 12:49, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

And important to add, it was a lingua franca among Jews, as per the Hebrew language page: Hebrew was always regarded as the language of Israel's religion, history and national pride, and after it faded as a spoken language, it continued to be used as a lingua franca among scholars and Jews traveling in foreign countries. Slava570 (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

You don't need to convince me of anything, though I understand the defensiveness that having your identity narrative being questioned can produce. Tiamut (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Hi Tiamut. I don't think you should be commenting about my identity or your perception about whether you think I'm being defensive, or whether you think my identity has anything to do with my response, which I think is quite valid. Slava570 (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

You chose to join the conversation I was having with NW. If you don't like my responses to your commentary, you are free to disengage. Tiamut (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

In general, it's not good to write off people's arguments because of their identity. Also, see here: WP:PARTISANS If an editor assumes that someone holds a specific view based only their identity (gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.), this is a strong sign that they view themself as on one side, and people with that identity on another. Slava570 (talk) 15:31, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I opened this section to discuss an accusation NW made at AE against me. Why are you here exactly? Would you like to comment in the AE instead? Please go ahead. Tiamut (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

No, I did not come for that. I only came to respond to the idea that Jews are not an ethnic group. Yes, that is absolutely FRINGE, so fringe that I don't think I've ever even seen anyone make that argument before. Slava570 (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Slava570 I do think this should be evaluated by administrators and that you should accept Tiamut's invitation NorthernWinds ❄️ () 19:08, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

My talk page is always open to everyone 👁 Image
especially those I disagree with NorthernWinds ❄️ () 19:15, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

(outdent) "This study examines how Jewish identity and antisemitism have been discussed in top-tier higher education journals through a content analysis of articles published over the past 50 years. Using HebCrit, an offshoot of critical race theory, as a theoretical perspective, this study investigates the prevalence of research on Jewish identity and antisemitism and analyzes how scholars frame Jewishness within their journal articles. Findings reveal that Jewish identity is overwhelmingly categorized as a religious identity, with little engagement in higher education scholarship on its racial and ethnic dimensions." Its not fringe or uncommon, even if you both believe it is inexact/inaccurate. Tiamut (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

By the way I didn't gloss over the differences between Jews; I clearly stated Any list based on ethnicity will have population that is different from each other (ethnicities are not homogenous at everything)... If your point is that because the Jews here have different lifestyle and opinions they can't be in the same list, I do not think your argument has much merits since the list doesn't actually suggest that they're all the same.; Jews have their differences but at the end of the day they are all members of the same group.[2] NorthernWinds ❄️ () 12:56, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

The ill-defined scope of that list is a discussion for the talk page of that article. Tiamut (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Just looking at the abstract, nowhere does it say that Jews are not an ethnicity. The fact that Jews are studied more often as a religious group does not mean they are not also an ethnic group. In fact, Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Categorizing Jews as a religious group is not FRINGE. Saying Jews are not an ethnicity or a people is the FRINGE part. Slava570 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Gans, who has had a far-reaching effect in both religious and ethnic studies, argues that American Jewish identity differs from that of other groups because Jews not only "share elements of a common pastor present non-American culture", but that the "sacred and secular elements of the culture are strongly intertwined" (Gans 1979:7). Others, however, have questioned this fusing of the sacred and the secular, as either a contemporary or even consistent and constant historic condition of Jewish identity. For instance, Sharot contends that "Since the entrance of Western Jewry into modernity at the end of the eighteenth century, the number of Jews and Jewish movements claiming a religious or an ethnic identity without the other are too numerous to be designated as exceptions to the pattern of religious-ethnic fusion (1997:90)" (...) Sharot (1997:90) elaborates on his ethnic/religious formulations by arguing that the process of secularization made it possible for Jews to identify either in purely religious terms or to identify with a people "without religion". Tiamut (talk) 17:40, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I'm seeing two assertions here. The first one (labeled as having a far-reaching effect) represents the mainstream view of Jews as an ethnoreligious group. The second says that there are some Jews that don't identify as an ethnoreligion, but as either/or, an ethnicity or a religion, and this is more than "an exception." "More than an exception" says a small minority of Jews (larger than an exception) do not self-identify as an ethnoreligion, with a percentage of that small minority identifying as an ethnicity only, and another percentage identifying as a religion only. This is once again not the same thing as saying that Jews are not an ethnicity. It says that a small number of Jews do not identify as an ethnicity. Slava570 (talk) 18:01, 5 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Hi NorthernWinds, there are some sourcing issues with the articles AV965 and ABT-354, as detailed on the respective talk pages. Would you be able to address them? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:45, 7 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Yes, I'll get to that. I created them pretty early on in my journey so I hope I didn't mess up too bad NorthernWinds ❄️ () 21:51, 7 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Thank you for checking them and raising these valid issues. Do not feel obligated to check the rest of my early articles; I will do that to the relevant ones myself.

Best, NorthernWinds ❄️ () 23:04, 7 June 2026 (UTC)[]

It is that narrow definition of "Palestinian" (ie that you have to self-identify as Palestinian in order to count) that creates absurd situations like the one on Talk:List_of_Palestinians#Marie-Alphonsine_Ghattas, and is a much stricter rule than is used on most other countries, I mentioned Italy as an example, Huldra (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I absolutely agree with you, and I have spoken against this definition: What people identify as is irrelevant (and also hard to verify). NorthernWinds ❄️ () 22:45, 8 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Great, and I totally agree with you. (but I still think you are making a tempest in a teapot with your report at AE) Huldra (talk) 22:13, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Ans I would really appreciate it if you could choose to refrain from following me to the ones I am commenting/working on like here. Tiamut (talk) 09:17, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Hey, I came to support your changes, not to WP:HOUND you. I'll respect your request (except for matters I've already commented on) NorthernWinds ❄️ () 09:55, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

First, I have not made any changes yet. Second, you are not supporting me in any way there. While I am listing sources discussing the linguistic continuity embodied in Palestinian Arabic, the main language of Palestine, you are ignoring what those sources say, and are proposing the article be split. So please, just stop. Tiamut (talk) 10:28, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I support everything said here, which is all that was said when I joined the discussion.

I have no energy to explain (beyond saying that sources for Palestinian Arabic should go to Palestinian Arabic) and will disengage for now. NorthernWinds ❄️ () 11:11, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Commandant Quacks-a-lot, two question:

1. You mentioned both the list being too broad (WP:NLIST), which I strongly disagree with, and the list being too big. Which of them role a bigger part in your decision to decline?
2. Would you recommend splitting it into different lists (say, in accordance with the current article's sections)?

Given the fact that History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel exists, establishing notability, and that the southern Levant was "was always seen as central" to Jews,^[1] establishing cultural signifiance, this list would be a lot more useful than all other Lists of Jews#By country. This type of list is also very common

RS says that Jews (the people on the list) share culture, descent, history, language and tradition. NorthernWinds ❄️ () 16:35, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Whether you agree with WP:NLIST or not, it's still policy. You can try to start a discussion to change the policy, but I can't accept something just because you don't like the rule. The main reason I declined it was because it was too broad. As I said in the decline, a category would probably be a better way to organize this. Since the Levant has such a large Jewish population, the list will inevitably be enormous. It's like having a List of Christians from Alabama. I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "RS," sorry. Commandant Quacks-a-lot (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Commandant Quacks-a-lot, there appears to be miscommunication.

I disagree with your application of NLIST, not with the policy itself.

By RS I mean reliable sources, cited in the linked diff.

This list is rather specific, in my opinion. And we do have a List of people from Alabama, which is wider in scope than what you compared list of Jews in the southern Levant to. We also have a List of people from Palestine (historical region), which is also by definition wider in scope. As I see it, your rejection appears to be inconsistent with what Wikipedia usually classifies as too broad (in particular, all lists by nationality and lists by ethnicity are necessarily broader).

With respect, is there any way to challenge this rejection, given that consensus is unclear as to whether the article should be created? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 17:45, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

You can resubmit it, and see if another editor decides to accept or reject it. Commandant Quacks-a-lot (talk) 17:55, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Alright, I'll see whether I do it. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you think that the notability tag should remain? Currently it seems like there's consensus to remove it; please weigh in if you object. NorthernWinds ❄️ () 18:02, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I don't really see any consensus to remove it, so it should probably remain for now. Commandant Quacks-a-lot (talk) 18:08, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Thanks! NorthernWinds ❄️ () 21:10, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Today – June 12 – is globally-recognized as the World Day Against Child Labour.

According to the International Labour Organization, hundreds of millions of children are involved in work that deprives them of their rights. This work may include illicit activities such as drug trafficking and even involvement in armed conflict. Today is our reminder to stand up against child labour and child soldiers. ✊🏼 aesurias (ping me in your reply, or I won't see it) (talk) 21:37, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Unfortunately I have no extra time to edit related pages; I don't even have time to make all the edits I want to. NorthernWinds ❄️ () 21:59, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I notice that you have a lot of related material on your userpage. If you feel it's awkward to keep that around while topic-banned from the area (I sure would, myself), I'd say you're welcome to alter it as you like in the next 24 hours or so. Within reason, obviously. If you swap it out for some enormous polemic, I doubt anyone would be impressed. But I don't think you're likely to do that. In solidarity, asilvering (talk) 04:55, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Hi asilvering. Indeed, I am not the kind of person to rant about others' criticism of their actions. Toward the end of the thread I came to a realization that it would also be best for me to take a break, so I am not mad or frustrated at the result. I do disagree with the interpretation of my intentions but at the end of the day disruption is disruption.

Thank you for allowing me to edit my userpage; I have taken the chance. Does the topic ban extend to Zioism in general (including aspects unrelated to the conflict)? NorthernWinds ❄️ () 09:48, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Well, it's the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed, so you'd want to be very careful about that. Certainly it becomes especially difficult after 1947. But articles that are not themselves about Zionism give you more room to manoeuvre. For example, if you wanted to write about the Jewish Labour Bund's relationship to Zionism, I think you would be able to do that in a way that didn't violate the topic ban. In solidarity, asilvering (talk) 11:29, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[]

I mean making a page for someone like Renzo Bonfiglioli who wasn't involved in Palestine but was the chairman of the Zionist org in Italy or David Dunkelman who helped purchase the Hefer valley. Last time I avoided these completely but I wonder if they are allowed... NorthernWinds ❄️ () 12:47, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[]

The latter is obviously right out - I don't know how you can explain someone who is notable for a land purchase in Palestine without any reference at all to the Arab-Israeli conflict. For the first, if he wasn't involved in Palestine, maybe? I can't say for certain, because it will depend on how you handle it. In solidarity, asilvering (talk) 02:06, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Dunkelman only arranged the loans (and also in general donated a lot) and his notability does not stem from this. But even if he was the person who went and searched and finalized the deal and that was what he was notable for I would still view him as unrelated to the conflict (as an individual). But I guess I am in the minority here.

Thank you for your input! NorthernWinds ❄️ () 16:33, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[]

asilvering Is it possible to get an exception to the topic ban to clarify something about content I added (here [3]) and adding full citations because some of what I added does not have? I will not be engaging in anything not related to the talk thread I linked or adding full citations to the citations Cj marked with tags (some of whom only I know the full version of) NorthernWinds ❄️ () 17:58, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

If you can give a simple yes/no answer to them, go ahead. In solidarity, asilvering (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

@Asilvering The answer is a yes/no with some extra details (not the kind of details to start a discussion I'll need to participate in)

Also maybe my request was unclear but I want permission to fix footnote c (the one after Zionists justified their claim to Palestine by emphasizing perceived historical ties to it) since I created it and I know the full citations, and since it includes an unsourced quote that only I know the source of (Jehiel Tschlenow's) and that realistically no one will ever be able to find without me adding a citation because the quote is a translation of a source... NorthernWinds ❄️ () 19:25, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Ok, I'll put WP:V over the topic ban for this specific footnote, and go ahead and answer the question on the talk page - but stick to clearing up WP:V questions only, and let it be the last you do on the matter. If the edits are contested, that's that, and the discussion will have to go on without you. In solidarity, asilvering (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Again, I do apologise for posing the question while missing the actions from AE, and thank you asilvering for allowing the confirmation to be given. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:38, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

Thanks :) Done both [4][5] NorthernWinds ❄️ () 22:41, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

It's unfortunate to hear about the AE case. I do hope to see you around continuing to contribute to Wikipedia in other topic areas. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]

All good, no need to feel bad; it's unhealthy! I do have a substantial reason to appeal so that may happen tomorrow. That said, I'll still self-request a temporary topic ban so you won't see me at PIA for at least a few weeks either way :) NorthernWinds ❄️ () 22:46, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[]