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โ‡ฑ Improving Mindat.org : France, Puy-de-Dรดme, Roc de Courlande: zircon or titanite ?


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Improving Mindat.orgFrance, Puy-de-Dรดme, Roc de Courlande: zircon or titanite ?

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9th Aug 2022 07:09 UTCHerwig Pelckmans OP

While looking at the New Photos of today, I noticed two excellent photos of Alex, both showing a single, prismatic crystal of "zircon". My favorite is above. The other one is 1236214.

Zircon is tetragonal, and as such its crystals tend to show a 4-fold symmetry. This crystal does not, it shows a much lower symmetry, orthorhombic at best.

If I would have been shown these specimens without any information, I would identify these as titanite (from the Eifel area in Germany), because the exact same habit of titanite has been found in the same geologic environment there. Titanite is monoclinic, but in this case what we see are twins, and so it looks like a single crystal with orthorhombic symmetry.


So I had a look at the 7 photos of "zircon" from this locality, and some photos do show zircon, but the others, IMHO, show titanite.
To me, these are zircons:
204920     
244096     
383648     
The others are most likely titanites 

Cheers, Herwig
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9th Aug 2022 17:27 UTCDemetrius Pohl Expert

It does look twinned (reentrant faces near termination) so titanite is a good visual ID
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12th Aug 2022 08:08 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Agree with titanite. Message sent.
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13th Aug 2022 00:53 UTCAlex Earl Expert

Thank you for messaging me about this, I noticed many other photographs from this locality with similar elongated tan crystals labeled as zircon. 

I did think the crystal forms are quite unusual for zircon, but as there were other posters having labeled similar elongated crystals as zircon, I assumed they knew more than me about the zircon crystals.

That being said, I can definitely see the resemblance to titanite. I will go ahead and change both of my photos. Itโ€™s always great learning more, especially with localities I am quite unfamiliar with. Thank you! 
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13th Aug 2022 00:56 UTCAlex Earl Expert

I also would like to add, titanite is not on the mineral list from this locality, so I will go ahead and add it to the list as a visual identification.
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13th Aug 2022 10:10 UTCJean-Marc Johannet Manager

Sorry but it is not so simple!
Titanite was never reported at Roc de Courlande.
I think there two errors on the Alex sample! Mineral identification and locality !
There is very good localities for titanite on the Massif du Sancy like
Le Capucin
https://www.mindat.org/loc-123571.html
Le Puy de la Tache
https://www.mindat.org/loc-49421.html
or Le Ravin des Chรจvres
https://www.mindat.org/loc-159540.html
even if they don't have all be added to mindat.org for titanite.

Volcanic stuff is very common on give-away table during French micro-mineralogists meetings, sometimes from several localities, labelling errors come easily ...

I will add several localities and references to this area as soon as I have time to do it ;-)
About Roc de Courlande zircon photographies, except the one posted by Alex, which, I'm agree is not a zircon, I see nothing wrong. As described in this reference, zircon crystals from there could really have strange habits.

Designolle, J.-L. (2020) Les zircons du massif de Sancy. Le Cahier des Micromonteurs:149(3): 11-38.

At last, please specially during summer holidays, it will be better to expect some days an answer from region experts before acting ;-)
Take care.
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13th Aug 2022 16:04 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Designolle, J.-L. (2020) Les zircons du massif de Sancy. Le Cahier des Micromonteurs:149(3): 11-38.
 Do you have by chance a PDF version of this article?
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13th Aug 2022 16:13 UTCAlex Earl Expert

Thank you for more clarification, I will continue following this discussion to see what updates I can make to the specimens, or what other information I can provide. 

If you have a pdf of the article I would definitely like to read it.
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13th Aug 2022 16:49 UTCHerwig Pelckmans OP

Make that 3 ... I would appreciate a pdf as well.

:-)

Cheers, Herwig
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16th Aug 2022 11:42 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Alex: Can you check the cross-section of that crystal? Prismatic titanite wouldn't have a rectangular cross-section.
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6th Sep 2022 11:23 UTCAlex Earl Expert

Sorry for the late reply. The cross section is not rectangular, rather it has angles that are obviously not 90ยฐ. I think they are titanite at this point, rather than zircon. 

I was also able to read the article, although I did need to use a translation. Regarding the locality, Iโ€™m not sure if it is actually from the roc de courlande locality, as I have not been able to contact the originator of the material (Marcus Reime).
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11th Jun 2024 12:46 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

as I have not been able to contact the originator of the material (Marcus Reime).
His Mindat website (Marus Aas Reime):
(He last logged in 14th Apr 2024.)

He is also on Instagram:





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11th Jun 2024 10:51 UTCVik Vanrusselt Expert

Hello all,

I am reviving this thread because I have just noticed that there are still 2 images of titanite left at the locality, which (from the information in the previous messages in this thread) is apparently impossible.

Moreover, the captions of the two remaining images identify the titanites as zircons.

Both the locality and the captions of these two images need to be changed.

Vik
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11th Jun 2024 12:27 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Fixed:
- Titanite not strike-out (as Alex wrote the angles preclude zircon); besides these pale yellow crystals look like typical volcanic titanite (as in the Eifel area for example).
- "zircon" in photo captions changed to titanite.

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13th Jun 2024 20:59 UTCJean-Marc Johannet Manager

Uwe, I totally disagree with you about the change of this entry status.
It should be maintained as "erroneously reported".
As I said before, we are dozen and dozen of microminerals collectors who years after years removed tons of material from there, without finding any titanite.
You're right the mineral on those photo is clearly titanite but the locality on Alex sample is clearly a wrong one.
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14th Jun 2024 18:19 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

As I said before, we are dozen and dozen of microminerals collectors who years after years removed tons of material from there, without finding any titanite.
Ok, I rely on your conclusion and have changed it to "erroneously reported."
(Without knowing the locality I still think that there is a chance titanite occurs there - the geology according to the description would allow it (mafic rocks often contain Ti minerals) and you only need one cavity where the necessary elements are present and the conditions are favourable. I noticed that titanite occurs in alluvials nearby.)

Let's hope Mr Reime will chime in.

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