Talk:Vector Oracle

This guy MIGHT be DOTM, not Prime. --M Sipher 19:33, 24 February 2012 (EST)

I was working on the assumption that all of the Arms Microns were Prime. I don't think their paperwork has any specific franchise? —Interrobang 20:00, 24 February 2012 (EST)

We don't have paperwork yet. But the webpage explaining him makes no mention of Prime anywhere, and in fact the campaign where you get him is called "Limited Movie Micron Present Campaign!!". So... not saying change it, jsut a heads-up. --M Sipher 05:29, 25 February 2012 (EST)

G1 character?

So, in this Tornado status update, he mentions looking like 'the smelting Vector Oracle' when covered in green goo. Can we take that as establishing VO as a G1 guy, or merely that an alternate G1 VO also exists? Jalaguy (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2014 (EDT)

The latter seems a little extraneous, so I'd go with the former. --ItsWalky (talk) 17:47, 18 June 2014 (EDT)

As Vector Oracle was originally advertised as a Prime character, and AVP this year has firmly established multi-continuity family characters, should we change the heading to identify Vector Oracle as both Aligned and G1? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2015 (EDT)

Merging

Disagree with merging. People are comparing it to a Rung situation but the different there is that, at least presumably, Roberts always intended for Rung to be Primus. Vector Oracle was just created as a random toy for the early stages of promoting the upcoming Prime toyline. Escargon (talk) 13:24, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

Also notable is that Primus isn't regarded as existing in the Wings stories until the future era of the Beast Wars. Escargon (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

I think it's fine to merge because Vector Oracle... has no fiction. We lose nothing by combining the two. The single thing we know about him that he is Primus. --ItsWalky (talk) 13:31, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

But the toy wasn't designed with that intent. It was applied post hoc. Escargon (talk) 13:35, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

That doesn't really matter to me. This wiki is full of characters organized by how they were actually used rather than original intent. --ItsWalky (talk) 13:41, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

For serious, so much of what fiction does with blank slate characters is enshrined by us. Beast Wars Sonar had no pronouns in her bio. Then 3H gave her a gender. Guess what, we default to those pronouns even though they were not the original intent. I see no difference versus our situation here: a complete nothing of a Nightstick redeco whose only point of interest is that his name is a portmanteau of Vector Sigma and the Oracle, two Primus-aligned entities, who was later confirmed by fiction to be Primus himself. Keeping them separate just feels like we're being purposefully obtuse. Again, there's no nuance we're losing by keeping them separate. --ItsWalky (talk) 13:48, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

Well, in this particular case, this article is wholly misleading for labeling him as a G1 guy because of one Facebook post, versus the fact that he was sold in the Prime toyline. Escargon (talk) 13:43, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

The first note indicates that his labeling is more complicated than that. --ItsWalky (talk) 13:50, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

There isn't really a complete consensus on the Discord right now, and I don't have a terribly strong opinion myself, but I figured I'd best pull out some trends from the discussion so far:

• Leaving aside any "original intent", which is basically impossible to ascribe, the two existing interpretations ("is an Arms Micron" and "probably isn't Primus") wouldn't really play well with folding VO onto the Primus page entirely.
  • The comparison with Rung (G1) yields a variation on this option, for the VO page to be folded in via a suite. The difference for most people seems to be that Rung was "always" (for a given definition of always) Primus.
• "Vector Oracle" is never actually named such in Selects. He's referred to just as "Oracle" by Primacron and Star Convoy. (Sam's checked this with the original Japanese.)
• The situation here is more-or-less a redux of that with Vector Sigma, Oracle (G1), and Oracle (BM). They all still have their own pages, simply referring to the Primus page where applicable (of course, they also had major story sources of their own in the first place, so it's not an exact match).
  • Another comparable situation might be Greatshot, which would manifest in practically the same way, but iirc that was a whole can of worms for the wiki too. To clarify, the idea here would be to add a Selects header to the VO page (linking to the fiction write-up on the Primus page), and then to copy the VO toy's writeup to the Primus page.

If anyone has anything I've missed feel free to add.—The Wadapan (talk) 15:01, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

• For what it's worth, another data point is that in the wake of the Selects finale we've traced VO's first Japanese appearance to a single panel cameo in 2016 that looks to be what the whole Selects star turn is built out of. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 16:59, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

We do know that the original Selects guy didn't talk much with Sakamoto about this, so it is Sakamoto grafting story on to stuff visible in the comics post hoc. Escargon (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

Did not mean to imply otherwise, first appearance overall still goes to the Facebook post anyway, just providing a full picture of character appearances. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2021 (EDT)

I can't find a full scan of the toy's instructions to confirm the actual "franchise"; all I can say is that he's labeled as an "Arms Micron" on it (and in promotional materials online). Saix (talk) 02:55, 14 April 2021 (EDT)

Instructions scan via Discord. General "Transformers" logo with no series subtitle. Also, the original Vector Oracle webpage, in contrast to those of the other promotional Arms Microns, does not mention TF: Prime at all. And even then, it was a flimsy labeling for Firebolt since he was made to go with the United Rodimus Prime toy whose engine block had been retooled for Firebolt to attach to in vehicle mode. Sure, some might argue that Sparks was the one who was really meant to go with Rodimus, but I'd argue that he was more likely made for those who simply missed out on getting the rarer Firebolt. Plus, the promotional Arms Microns of 2011-2012 redecoed from PCC Mini-Cons and named after G1 Targetmasters always felt, to me, like a direct continuation of the United "Targetmaster Microns" of 2010-2011 that were also PCC Mini-Con redecos named after G1 Targetmasters. I mean, is it any wonder that Takara renamed Arms Micron "Fracas" to "Blowpipe" when Targetmaster Micron Fracas had already used that name?

Of the six 2011-2012 campaign Arms Microns, Vector Oracle always seemed to be the odd one out both mold-wise (being a Universe Targetmaster mold never called a Mini-Con/Micron before then) and name-wise. In fact, when first announced, this was my initial reaction to the figure: "Judging by his name, Vector Oracle may be a physical humanoid form of Vector Sigma." After all, the toy was first announced well after the "Primus is Vector Sigma and the Oracle" retcon of 2007. The name only made sense to me in that regard.

I guess what might ultimately tip the scales in favor of a merge is this: Vector Oracle's instructions don't use the TF: Prime logo, but neither do the instructions for Firebolt or Pinpointer. In fact, it is those three (Vector Oracle, Firebolt, and Pinpointer) who were 2012 releases while Peaceman, Fracas Blowpipe, and Aimless were 2011 releases. Did the three 2011 ones have the Prime logo on their instructions? If so, then it's very interesting that that labeling was dropped for the three 2012 ones, beginning with the already-established-oddball-of-the-group Vector Oracle. And did the 2010-2011 "Targetmaster Microns" (a name that, if I may add, sounds very much like a precursor to the "Arms Micron" name, since it's basically a layman description for what an Arms Micron is) all have the United logo in their instructions? If yes, then I guess we can excuse them from this discussion. But if no, then we may have a precedent for Vector Oracle, Firebolt, and Pinpointer all lacking any specific-series logos in their instructions. --Sabrblade (talk) 13:05, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

I'm gonna point out here, months later, that Sakamoto repurposes toys for rando things all the time, even before Selects with Universe Razorclaw being a Galaman or whatever. I don't get what makes Vector Oracle being repurposed any different. Escargon (talk) 13:44, 15 June 2021 (EDT)

The question being posed here was with the fundamental premise of whether this is a "repurpose" at all. As the toy had functionally no prior fiction, there is very little to be repurposed from, and thus there's an argument to be made that Selects Oracle is Vector Oracle's de facto primary characterization. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2021 (EDT)

Nevermore's new Campaign item sandbox has shed some light on this. The three Arms Microns that were labeled as Prime toys on Takara's website (Aimless, Peaceman, and Blowpipe) were actually never labeled as Prime toys in their instructions. They each instead just had a Prime-less "Transformers" logo, which would lend further credence to the notion that they (along with Firebolt and Pinpointer) were just a spiritual continuation of the PCC mold redecos with names based on the G1 Targetmasters that began with the United toyline's campaign items, and that the branding change from United to just Transformers was simply adjusted in accordance to the United toyline being on its way out, and to enable these toys to promote any Transformers toyline (like how other "Transformers" campaign items were used to promote the Movie and ROTF toylines in addition to the actual Movie and ROTF campaign items). Conversely, the only campaign items that were labeled as Prime toys were the actual Prime Arms Micron model kit molds.

As for why the seven 2011-2012 campaign items were called "Arms Microns" at all, it's looking more and more like that was done simply for marketing consistency, by using the same term across the board that was the more mainstream one of the time, as though "Arms Micron" was just another name for Targetmaster toys and Takara just really wanted to push it. As such, it's looking less and less like Vector Oracle, Aimless, Peaceman, Blowpipe, Firebolt, Firebolt Clear Yellow Ver., and Pinpointer were ever supposed to be Prime-specific toys and characters. --Sabrblade (talk) 17:38, 15 June 2021 (EDT)

After some more back and forth on the discord, we ultimately settled on the Vector Sigma/Oracles approach. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2021 (EDT)